THE NON-OBVIOUS SHOW · EPISODE 53
with Christopher Wong Michealson and Jennifer Tosti-Kharas
In this episode, the conversation explores the concept of meaningful work, its definitions, and the impact of technology on the workplace. Philosophers and psychologists discuss the importance of understanding who benefits from our work, the pressures of finding a calling, and the cultural perspectives that shape our views on work. The discussion also touches on the implications of automation and the need for a societal perspective on meaningful work.
Roughly a third of us treat work as a job, a third as a career, and a third as a calling, and of that last group, only about half knew from childhood. The rest, as organizational psychologist Jennifer Tosti-Kharas puts it, just did stuff and fell into something they ended up loving. That statistic quietly dismantles a lot of "find your passion" advice, and it is only where this conversation starts. Tosti-Kharas and her co-author Christopher Wong Michaelson, a philosopher and business ethicist, draw a sharp line between a bullshit job (busywork even the person doing it thinks shouldn't exist) and a shit job (sanitation, janitorial work, essential and undesirable), then point out how reliably the worst work flows to the least powerful people. They also raise a wrinkle most AI conversations miss: automating the junior lawyer's brief doesn't just erase a job, it erases a meaningful learning step that once built mastery. Michaelson offers a test worth sitting with. If you cannot explain the value of your work to a seven year old, what exactly are you doing all day?
Christopher Wong Michealson: Co-author of Is Your Work Worth It?; ethics professor | Jennifer Tosti-Kharas: Professor of management at Babson College
Christopher Wong Michaelson holds the Koch Endowed Chair in Business Ethics at the University of St. Thomas and also teaches at NYU's Stern School of Business. He co-wrote Is Your Work Worth It? with Jennifer Tosti-Kharas and researches what makes work meaningful. | Jennifer Tosti-Kharas is professor of management at Babson College, where she holds the Camilla Latino Spinelli Endowed Term Chair, and co-author of Is Your Work Worth It? She researches meaningful work, careers and the idea of work as a calling.
christopherwongmichaelson.com ↗
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